Comments on: It’s Hard to Teach Calvinism to Arminians http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/ I am crucified with Christ, and yet I live Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:28:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.3 By: ilona http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1050 ilona Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1050 I think the idea of depravity of man is true, I think that God does indeed orchestrate circumstances in a man's life to help him come to salvation, and the idea that man will absolutely come? that is to the degree that God's Grace gives sight to one of His Person. With God "to know Him is to love Him" is my view. But I think there are things that your simple line does not account for, and these things are what give prayer its importance, and responses and will their importance. Otherwise you end up with a fatalistic view- one that is not in tune with the full scriptural inofrmation. I think the idea of depravity of man is true, I think that God does indeed orchestrate circumstances in a man’s life to help him come to salvation, and the idea that man will absolutely come? that is to the degree that God’s Grace gives sight to one of His Person. With God “to know Him is to love Him” is my view.

But I think there are things that your simple line does not account for, and these things are what give prayer its importance, and responses and will their importance.

Otherwise you end up with a fatalistic view- one that is not in tune with the full scriptural inofrmation.

]]> By: rebecca http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1051 rebecca Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1051 Sounds to me like your taking a good approach in your teaching, and that you've got good students as well. And I do agree with you about limited atonement. Limited intent, infinite merit--not mathmatical--which makes it a lot more nuanced of a position that most people represent it as. Sounds to me like your taking a good approach in your teaching, and that you’ve got good students as well.

And I do agree with you about limited atonement. Limited intent, infinite merit–not mathmatical–which makes it a lot more nuanced of a position that most people represent it as.

]]> By: MegLogan http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1052 MegLogan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1052 *insert appropriately sad, confused, misunderstanding sigh here* Ok Ok, I see you are a Calvinsit. But I just dont get it. Why do we (the church) split hairs over this? When I look into both sides I see that they are both scripturally supported. You use the scripture about Jacob and Esau to say that God chooses, but what about the scripture that says "I wish that none should perish"? (for the life of me i cant find where this scripture is, or exactly what it says, if you know i would be happy to be corrected) I am so puzzled by this whole arguement between Aminians and Calvinists... I just dont see why it is so important to salvation... if it is so important how could a child be saved? how could we have faith as a child, and why didnt God just make it totally clear? Well anway, I hope you post more lessons, so i can get a better grasp on Calvinism. Especially scripturally supported positions. I rather to think that it is not so vital to our salvation to know how it works, but that we can be assured of our salvation by the fruits of the Spirit in our lives, evidence of our connection to the Vine. Im sure you have another opinion... help me to understand. peace, Meg *insert appropriately sad, confused, misunderstanding sigh here*

Ok Ok, I see you are a Calvinsit. But I just dont get it. Why do we (the church) split hairs over this? When I look into both sides I see that they are both scripturally supported. You use the scripture about Jacob and Esau to say that God chooses, but what about the scripture that says “I wish that none should perish”? (for the life of me i cant find where this scripture is, or exactly what it says, if you know i would be happy to be corrected)

I am so puzzled by this whole arguement between Aminians and Calvinists… I just dont see why it is so important to salvation… if it is so important how could a child be saved? how could we have faith as a child, and why didnt God just make it totally clear?

Well anway, I hope you post more lessons, so i can get a better grasp on Calvinism. Especially scripturally supported positions.

I rather to think that it is not so vital to our salvation to know how it works, but that we can be assured of our salvation by the fruits of the Spirit in our lives, evidence of our connection to the Vine. Im sure you have another opinion… help me to understand.

peace,
Meg

]]> By: Robert http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1053 Robert Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1053 Sorry it took me a little bit to respond... busy with a deployment at work. I think the best approach to answering Ilona's and Meg's comments will be to post here what I've been teaching. Meg, the verse you are looking for is 2 Peter 3:9. I believe God does want everyone to repent and be saved. You and I would probably agree that God absolutely could save everyone if He chose to. And we would probably agree that not everyone will be saved. So, Calvinist or Arminian, we have to ask "Why doesn't God save everyone, since that is His desire?" Sorry it took me a little bit to respond… busy with a deployment at work.

I think the best approach to answering Ilona’s and Meg’s comments will be to post here what I’ve been teaching.

Meg, the verse you are looking for is 2 Peter 3:9. I believe God does want everyone to repent and be saved. You and I would probably agree that God absolutely could save everyone if He chose to. And we would probably agree that not everyone will be saved. So, Calvinist or Arminian, we have to ask “Why doesn’t God save everyone, since that is His desire?”

]]> By: MegLogan http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1054 MegLogan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1054 because, people choose not to accept His salvation... what is your answer? because, people choose not to accept His salvation… what is your answer?

]]> By: Chris P. http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1055 Chris P. Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1055 Don't mean to just barge in, but this is a good discussion. I have one question for Meg, and I am not trying to be contentious, but in light of the Scripture that Robert quoted from 2 Peter, and your reply to that; how does Romans 9:6-24 fit in? For Ilona; why is prayer important? What is prayer actually for? Good post Robert! May your teaching ministry be extremely fruitful. Don’t mean to just barge in, but this is a good discussion.
I have one question for Meg, and I am not trying to be contentious, but in light of the Scripture that Robert quoted from 2 Peter, and your reply to that; how does Romans 9:6-24 fit in?
For Ilona; why is prayer important? What is prayer actually for?

Good post Robert! May your teaching ministry be extremely fruitful.

]]> By: MegLogan http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1056 MegLogan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1056 To be honest, Chris... I really havent taken sides. I just dont think it is necessary to choose one over the other. I try to follow Gods commands regarding going into the earth and making disciples, and winning people to the Lord. I do not think that Calvinism and Arminianism ought to be a dividing line in the Body. I was asking these questions of Robert to see what his point of view is. I generally think that this is one of those mysterious things which we cannot comprehend. It is both, true that the Lord wishes none should persish, and that He will harden the hearts of whom He chooses, and have mercy on whom He chooses. It is infathomable to me to understand how these two things can be congruent, and not contradictory in nature. But because I trust one> that God is sovereign, and two> that He is all powerful, and three> that He is perfect beyond measure, then I can trust that He is always doing the right thing, whether I understand it, or not, whether it appears to be good or not... my perception is unimportant, His divinity, Perfection, All Consuming nature... GOD, GOD is important, and He can handle all these things, whether we understand or not. THerefore, I do not feel that we need to choose sides or divide the Body over such issues. This issue really has no bearing upon a saving faith, other than to say that it is in His control. And therefore we ought to just trust that without having to explain it or undertand it. Peace, Meg To be honest, Chris… I really havent taken sides. I just dont think it is necessary to choose one over the other. I try to follow Gods commands regarding going into the earth and making disciples, and winning people to the Lord. I do not think that Calvinism and Arminianism ought to be a dividing line in the Body. I was asking these questions of Robert to see what his point of view is.

I generally think that this is one of those mysterious things which we cannot comprehend. It is both, true that the Lord wishes none should persish, and that He will harden the hearts of whom He chooses, and have mercy on whom He chooses. It is infathomable to me to understand how these two things can be congruent, and not contradictory in nature. But because I trust one> that God is sovereign, and two> that He is all powerful, and three> that He is perfect beyond measure, then I can trust that He is always doing the right thing, whether I understand it, or not, whether it appears to be good or not… my perception is unimportant, His divinity, Perfection, All Consuming nature… GOD, GOD is important, and He can handle all these things, whether we understand or not.

THerefore, I do not feel that we need to choose sides or divide the Body over such issues. This issue really has no bearing upon a saving faith, other than to say that it is in His control. And therefore we ought to just trust that without having to explain it or undertand it.

Peace,
Meg

]]> By: Dan Paden http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1057 Dan Paden Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1057 Enjoy teaching your class. I think you are correct; there are many currently in the creationism class that will also be interested in Calvinism. Creationism is an extremely hot topic right now and will continue to be. It is foundational to how people look at the Scriptures, so to me, the fact that the creationism class is full should be very encouraging. It says that there are a lot of people in your church that take the Scriptures seriously. Enjoy teaching your class. I think you are correct; there are many currently in the creationism class that will also be interested in Calvinism. Creationism is an extremely hot topic right now and will continue to be. It is foundational to how people look at the Scriptures, so to me, the fact that the creationism class is full should be very encouraging. It says that there are a lot of people in your church that take the Scriptures seriously.

]]> By: Chris P. http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1058 Chris P. Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1058 Meg, I did not ask the question to create a divide or to force people to "choose sides" as far as Calvin or Arminius. Moses and Joshua put forth th real proposition. Your thoughtful response is a witness to me that you are a discerner of the Word. You said He is sovereign, all powerful, and perfect and that is exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 9 God can choose to do whatever He desires to do and we have nothing to say in the matter. The question always is;what is it that He is doing? The labels of Calvinist vs.arminianist are just a way of saying God's sovereign, perfect, acceptable, and holy will (Romans 12:2) vs our finite and rebellious will. Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword. It is the Word that divides whenever we hear and use it properly. Christ is the divide and the bridge. The Word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart God Bless you Sister. Exodus 30:11-20; Joshua 24:14-15;Matt 10:34-38; Roamans 10:5-13; Eph 6:17;Hebrews 4:12-13;Rev 1:16 and Rev. 19:15 Meg,

I did not ask the question to create a divide or to force people to “choose sides” as far as Calvin or Arminius. Moses and Joshua put forth th real proposition.
Your thoughtful response is a witness to me that you are a discerner of the Word. You said He is sovereign, all powerful, and perfect and that is exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 9
God can choose to do whatever He desires to do and we have nothing to say in the matter. The question always is;what is it that He is doing? The labels of Calvinist vs.arminianist are just a way of saying
God’s sovereign, perfect, acceptable, and holy will (Romans 12:2) vs our finite and rebellious will. Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword. It is the Word that divides whenever we hear and use it properly. Christ is the divide and the bridge. The Word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart
God Bless you Sister.

Exodus 30:11-20; Joshua 24:14-15;Matt 10:34-38; Roamans 10:5-13; Eph 6:17;Hebrews 4:12-13;Rev 1:16 and Rev. 19:15

]]> By: MegLogan http://robert.williamsonline.us/2005/04/its-hard-to-teach-calvinism-to-arminians/#comment-1059 MegLogan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://robert.williamsonline.us/?p=789#comment-1059 Chris, Are you saying that Calvinists are on the side of "perfect, soveriegn, acceptable, and holy wioll," while Arminianists are on the side of "our finite and rebellious will"? Could you explain a bit more along these lines? I have not gotten to your scripture references just yet, but I will. And thank you for your words of encouragement. Peace, Meg Chris, Are you saying that Calvinists are on the side of “perfect, soveriegn, acceptable, and holy wioll,” while Arminianists are on the side of “our finite and rebellious will”? Could you explain a bit more along these lines? I have not gotten to your scripture references just yet, but I will.

And thank you for your words of encouragement.

Peace,
Meg

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